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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1065 comments

  • J M Smith

    Udo van den Heuvel

    Hahahahaha, love it!!!

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  • Michael Mazzola

    Well, I just got done purchasing DXO PhotoLab Elite + Nik Collection together for the same appx price as CO'23 - with the 30% discount of course. Broke my heart. It just comes down to: I don't trust Capture One. Every time I open CO1 now I enter some weird mourning state.

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  • Udo van den Heuvel

    An analogy

    Soichiro Honda, who started building motorcycles in 1948 and subsequently built a world company (Honda Corporation), had 3 guiding principles as his credo in later life: Joy of making, joy of selling, joy of buying.

    Honda builds top quality and so sustainable that I still get essential components for my 2000 CBR900RR without any problems. The same goes for my 2002 Honda VFR800VTEC, which still rides today like it did when it was new. 

    What I want to say: You can feel the guiding principles of the founder and CEO in both products. The employees have delivered the highest quality possible across the board, the dealers have been able to sell Honda products with a clear conscience, and the buyer has had a good day when he has left his hard-saved money with the dealer.

    A win-win-win situation. Made possible by an honest craftsman who has always lived the three qualities of enthusiasm, talent and diligence.

    Honda didn't need any consultant fuzzies; they might have made more profit, but then Honda would have had to give up its ideal. Success proved him right.

    And now - dear Capture One team: sit down again, consider how your software creators should feel, develop joy in selling and create distribution models that give the customer a good feeling when buying and using.

    By the way: Tadao Baba, the great Large Project Leader of the "Honda Fireblade" project, was inspired to build a motorcycle that he himself would like to ride "after work" as his dream machine. He made it in the end. And is honored as a legend to this day.

    What history does the Capture One team want to write?

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  • Mark Hopgood

    I understand that software companies may have to make changes to their licensing to remain viable, although some do it for increased profit, shareholders and the like.  To my mind they have to be upfront and clear about why these changes are required and what will be the new plan moving forward.  I recently saw a video about Wondershare Filmora, a video editing program.  They changed the agreement of a lifetime licence to a yearly perpetual licence without informing their customer base, on the sly as it were.  The new version, # 12, required an upgrade payment for use once installed and launched, a complete surprise.  This was news to those that had paid for and been promised free upgrades for the life of the product.  There has been backlash of course and they seem to have taken the C1 line of saying nothing.  Have a look at Daniel Batal, a previous Filmora ambassador, for further info.

    Topaz Labs changed their lifetime licence for some of their products, however, they were upfront about why and how the new licensing would work, basically yearly updates for a price.  Although there was major backlash at least people knew where they stood.

    Capture One over the last few years have increased the price of perpetual licence upgrades to the point where people were reluctant to upgrade especially as the new features were underwhelming. Under the new paradigm of upgrades being released when they are available imagine an upgrade where the great new feature is being able to change the capture time in the metadata.  You would be up for a loyalty program cost, whatever that will be, plus if you don't want it then that will be the end of your bug fixes.

    Only a couple of weeks to go before all is revealed.

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  • Jeffrey Kogler

    @Mark Hopgood, even though I'm only vaguely familiar with the Filmora brand and had never heard of Daniel Batal until now, I'm hoping C1 don't go down the road of trashing their brand as Filmora seem intent on doing.

    There is also an element of legal jeopardy here.  In Filmora's case they seem to have made an offer with certain terms and conditions; customers have accepted that offer via their purchase; that is a contract.  If Filmora breach that contract they leave themselves open to being sued.  Fortunately for them their customers probably don't possess the legal or financial resources to do so.

    Recent discussions here and on social media have also made me aware to be more sceptical of the published views of brand ambassadors more generally.

    Jeff

     

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  • Alessio Furlan

    Have you seen the question of Filmora and Daniel Batal how did it end?

    Link: https://youtu.be/Xy1HiWGchMg

    Filmora had to take a step back.

    This is the strength of users. This is the strength to live in a system that allows you to speak openly about things that do not go.

    And Capture One should also reflect on this.

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  • Alessio Furlan

    Jeffrey Kogler 

    It depends on the type of ambassador and the type of contract.

    I am an Italian content creator and I receive many collaboration proposals. I also signed contracts with some brands.

    But there are various types of contract. I only sign those where I also have the freedom to say the things that are not good. And I guarantee you that many brands want to know when there are things that are not good, to improve them.

    An example is my collaboration with Insta360, they have improved many products also thanks to the reports I made on defects and shortcomings. Reports I made publicly in my videos.

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  • Jeffrey Kogler

    @Alessio Furlan. Yes it seems that the Filmora issue is heading in the right direction.

    And thank you for your information with respect to your own connection with companies/products.

    Jeff

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  • Paul Reiffer

    Jeffrey Kogler

    If it helps with some insight, I can categorically say that Capture One actively encourage constructive criticism and feedback on issues from all ambassadors, as they do customers too.

    I think there’s sometimes a challenge “seeing through the mist”, so to speak, to get to the root of a problem or feeling but in this particular case it’s pretty clear…!

    From my own perspective, you’ll find me as critical as many other users when things go wrong (indeed, there are many recordings of such!) - and people might also forget that 95% of my time is spent as a commercial photographer , not as a badge-collecting ambassadorship addict. In other words, when things aren’t right, it directly affects my business and income - and I approach my feedback to Capture One with that viewpoint.

    I can’t speak for other actual Capture One ambassadors, but I know the message from “mother ship” has always been to be open, challenging and critical when it counts in order to make the product better.

    (Which I tend to do, in droves… ;-)

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  • Class A

    @Paul Reiffer

    You wrote "... I know the message from “mother ship” has always been to be open, challenging and critical when it counts in order to make the product better."

    Unfortunately, that hasn't always been my experience.

    I'd like to first say that I had many positive and constructive interactions with a good number of Capture One employees. There are definitely great people working for Capture One.

    However, at least one person doesn't have the openness you describe. I was shadow banned from Capture One's YouTube videos. This means it was a "silent" ban in the sense that I could still see my comments but nobody else could. I would have had no idea that my comments were invisible to everyone else, had I not once tried to read a comment from me while being logged in with another account.

    I was unhappy because
    - I was not properly banned, i.e., was insidiously led to believe that I wasn't banned.

    - I obviously was not given any reason as to why my comments were not welcome.

    When I enquired about the ban, I was told that I had made feature requests in my comments and that these are not allowed as video comments.

    I found that hard to believe since,

    a) a lot of other people make feature request in video comments and are not banned.

    b) I was neither given a warning, nor a notification.

    How is one supposed to not do something if one is never told about the rule? I still find it hard to believe that such a rule a actually exists. If it does, it is very poorly enforced.

    I was told my ban was lifted and I appreciate that but at the same time some of my historic comments remain hidden which I find odd. 

    While I am critical at times, I always try to be polite and constructive. I really don't think there were any grounds to shadow ban me.

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  • Paul Reiffer

    Class A

    As I mentioned - in my post that related specifically to the concerns raised by Jeffrey about brand ambassadors - this was a comment specifically relating to the messaging that goes to us *as* brand ambassadors, so not relevant to your scenario.

    Your own personal issues/experiences may vary, but the message to brand ambassadors is clear - and I've not heard of any other customers being "banned" from any channels unless they've been abusive or posting irrelevant content over and over again (effectively spam). On your specific case, I'm afraid I can't help, as I don't know the background and didn't make the decision 😎

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  • Class A

    @Paul Reiffer

    You wrote "...I've not heard of any other customers being "banned" from any channels unless they've been abusive or posting irrelevant content over and over again (effectively spam)..."

    Well, you have now. I was never abusive (not my style), and never posted irrelevant content.

    FYI, in the past, I often helped other posters suggesting solutions etc. Whether during webinars, YouTube live streams or with regular YouTube comments, I always tried to be helpful and my criticism was always politely worded and had a constructive tone.

    I hope that Capture One can return to more customer focus because I preferred the times when I was actively engaged and recommended C1 to others. Right now, I unfortunately cannot recommend C1 to others with a good conscious anymore, however, I hope I will be able to again.

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  • Jeffrey Kogler

    @Paul Reiffer, thanks for your advice. I shall take it into account.

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  • Paul Reiffer

    Class A

    So, a thought - if you want to raise a direct question with Rafael - why not join our AMA session next month?

    https://youtu.be/nZG1ExcHH_Q 

    Even if we don't get to your specific question, it might answer some you have anyway...?

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  • Class A

    @Paul Reiffer

    Thanks a lot for the pointer, much appreciated!

    I'll try to make it.

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    @Paul Reiffer

    Thanks for sharing – that sounds interesting.

    It would be very interesting to know what he thinks of Capture One's (perceived) lack of openness and lack of engagement with users (other than around sharing photos on social media), not least in the perspective of his 2021 open letter and the subsequent interview – mentioned earlier in this thread – where he talks specifically about openness.

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    @Paul Reiffer

    Thanks for sharing – that sounds interesting.

    It would be very interesting to know what he thinks of Capture One's (perceived) lack of openness and lack of engagement with users (other than around sharing photos on social media), not least in the perspective of his 2021 open letter and the subsequent interview – mentioned earlier in this thread – where he talks specifically about openness.

    Open letter: captureone[DOT]com/blog/a-letter-from-our-new-ceo

    Interview: imaging-resource[DOT]com/news/2021/03/17/interview-with-capture-ones-ceo-rafael-orta

    [Re-posted to avoid the "pending approval" bin.]

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  • FirstName LastName

    It's about time companies change their point of view from being driven to get more money from users and look in-house for efficiency improvements to pass some bonuses to consumers. It's quite crazy everywhere, where it's always about trying to grab the next $1 from the consumer. Never I have heard of any company coming forward to say, we fixed our internal inefficient workflow and saved $$$$$$ and now we are able to provide a better service than before for the same cost!

    - we are always focused on making something great and then get (somewhat greedy) inefficient and ruin it all! Vicious circle!

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  • Jason Patel

    This move is thoroughly disappointing and I do not wish to have all my historical edits needing to have a subscription to access them.

    Right now if you sign up for a subscription once you stop paying you loose the ability to access the software to see all the old edits. Where are my perpetual licence I keep access. Suggest you fix that situation as removing ability to access my own edits is simply wrong.

    With that being the case there is no point in investing time in editing images that I will loose access to.

    Will you be updating with what the upgrade pricing is or is this the 33% noted on the website.

    I do see a distinct lack of comms from CaptureOne on this despite the massive outcry from your customers.

    Been a massive fan of C1 though have seen the quality of updates get lower and prices keep increasing. I no longer recommend. You never provide any roadmap so we cannot tell what the product will look like in future and if it’s something we want to keep with. The method of running is very old fashioned and feels like you don’t value your customer opinion as you know better - 90s IBM comes to mind.

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  • truepictures

    As expected, the storm of indignation has died down, not even a breeze. Is this the famous calm before the storm? Or have all the dissatisfied already migrated to the various competitors and are no longer following the presentation of the announced loyalty programme? As predicted: the caravan moves on, CO comes off as the winner and leaves hundreds of corpses behind.

    Kind of a shame it had to end this way. As a CO user, one is helpless and powerless in the face of CO's decisions. Just like in a long-term relationship in which you actually felt comfortable. And suddenly you are left with the offer "we can stay friends". That has rarely worked.

    And yet I am curious. What would my price have been? 

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  • Weldon Thomson

    “ As expected, the storm of indignation has died down, not even a breeze. Is this the famous calm before the storm?”

    I think that it is just that enough has been said, by so many already, there’s not a lot left to say until C1 FINALLY/HOPEFULLY fills us all in more in the next couple of weeks. What is said, at that time, will surely be dependent on what info they give, and the acceptability of what they propose. I’m in the boat of waiting to see, but am in the fortunate position of being able to because I am not so heavily invested in C1 yet. And, part of the reason I’ve been fairly quiet is that I’ve been busy evaluating and preparing to implement other EXCELLENT options. I suspect many others, if they have not moved on already, are also preparing for the possibility, if not inevitability, of moving on as well. It is very hard to conceive of anything C1 might tell us, despite all the hope many of us MAY still have, that might instill our trust in them going forward. Maybe?? We will see.

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  • ernst.w

    @info

    > no longer following the presentation of the announced loyalty programme?

    I am just waiting to follow the „presentation“ - when it comes. In the meanwhile there is nothing to do but prepairing for the worst. This is nearly noiseless.

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  • Richard Reader

    I think that we've reached a point where, from the position of C1 perpetual licence holders, there is little else to say. Hundreds have posted here and hundreds more have posted in other forums their concerns following the initial announcement. It must be clear to those at C1 that a sizable element of their customer base is unhappy, yet the powers that be have not said anything to calm the disquiet. To me this is ominous; I cannot see C1, or any seriously minded company, having the tenacity to hold out from saying anything to calm matters down in a situation where their reputation is taking a dent, only to effectively say in a forthcoming announcement (that they must know the contents of), that everything is OK, we had no need to worry and things are going to be better still for perpetual licence holders in the future. That smacks of taking customers for a ride at the customers' expense, particularly since many will have spent valuable time and resources researching alternative software.

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  • Jeffrey Kogler

    I posted yesterday on a YouTube page by a developer critical of the C1 approach...
    "Learning and using Capture One has gone on hold with me (I am not a professional photographer but have CO 23) until the future price/value impacts become clearer. I like the interface especially more than any other program I have used but the price has always been problematic."

    I developed a short list of 5 alternatives, including C1, and am now actively retrialling the front runner, ON1 Photo Raw.  

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  • Peter Klein

    There are about 780 comments on this thread. The recent "silence" is occurring because most of us have said what we need to say. We are waiting for Capture One to tell us exactly what happens after February. Honestly, I am not optimistic. What little has been said by Capture One smells like public relations and "expectations management." I suspect that the decisions have already been made, and everyone is talking or writing from the P.R. script. I suspect that the business consultants have convinced the C-One executives that if they lose x number of customers but gain y number of subscribers, C-One will come out ahead. So the non-subscribers can jolly well go {naughty word} themselves.

    Sadly, I predict that yes, perpetual licenses will continue, but C-One will make them less and less desirable. "Loyalty" will be defined as buying a new perpetual license every year, with a discount that may still cost almost as much or more than a subscription. We will slowly be herded towards subscription as the only truly viable alternative. Many professionals and devoted amateurs may decide to grit their teeth and subscribe. But once they do, they must pay for the rest of their lives or lose access to their edits. Yes, you can store TIF files, but should you have to do that? This is why I am committed to NOT rent software.

    I hope I am proven wrong. But in case I am right, I am actively evaluating alternatives, on both Windows and Linux. I am happy to pay for new software features and innovation that benefit me. I do so regularly. But I reserve the right to upgrade, or not, when I choose. And I will not, repeat not give a corporation the ability to hold my work hostage to monthly extortion payments--excuse me, subscription fees.

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  • J M Smith

    Look at what just happened with Filmora and them cancelling their Lifetime Licenses. The outcry was so large that they were forced to roll back the cash grab…

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    I will not subscribe. Period.

    If the to be announced conditions are too bad I will turn into a mode where I will upgrade only when I absolutely need to (e.g. new camera) or my most favorite feature will be released (flawlessly), and depending on my TCO (total cost of ownership)  for C1 and the capabilities of the competitors I will leave C1 forever, as soon as it makes sense to me.

    C1's "loyalty" to their perpetual license customers, as it seems to be now, really makes me upset, and this will not be forgotten.

     

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  • Thomas Kyhn
    Top Commenter

    Peter Klein:

    I suspect that the decisions have already been made, and everyone is talking or writing from the P.R. script.

    What could possibly be the advantage of not disclosing the new license model right away and, as a result of that, leaving all this room for speculation? I don't suppose they've counted on users to anticipate something so bad that they could only be positively surprised when the new loyalty programme was finally disclosed.

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  • Weldon Thomson

    “ What could possibly be the advantage of not disclosing the new license model right away and, as a result of that, leaving all this room for speculation?”

    Because it is just about the only thing that makes any sense, I suspect that “the point” was to delay the (presumably bad) news long enough to time out the possibility of credit card chargebacks by those who purchased during the Black Friday and pre-release sales. Many have gone that route, and chargebacks are costly to them. It is very possible that those sales, just prior to the suspicious timing of the changes announcement by C1, were intended to boost revenue substantially for the purpose of finding their changes which, I believe, they have had on their internal roadmap for some time. Businesses do not normally make such decisions and moves on the fly, without advance thought and planning.

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  • J M Smith

    Of course what could be going on (and would require the silence that we are experiencing from CO) is that a transaction is in the works. Either CO is acquiring another software title or Axcel is in the process of an exit…

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