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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1064 comments

  • J M Smith

    truepictures

    I use DaVinci Resolve as well, great piece of kit.

    The difference in CO's subscription and Adobe's subscription is you do not lose access to your assets located located locally with LR when a subscription ends.

    According to this page (https://helpx.adobe.com/manage-account/using/cancel-subscription.html), upon canceling a Creative Cloud subscription "You can continue to access all your photos on your local hard drive through Lightroom for the desktop. You can continue to import and organize photos and output your edited photos through Export, Publish, Print, Web, or Slideshow. Access to the Develop & Map modules and Lightroom for mobile is not available after your membership ends."

    So the ball is now firmly in CO's court.

    This page https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/photography/compare-plans.html shows where to get the Adobe 20GB photography plan for US$9.99/month.  Including Photoshop, Lightroom, Lightroom Classic, Photoshop for iPad, and Lightroom Mobile, plus some other things.

    If CO plans to force us to an overpriced subscription model there are quite a number of much less expensive and every bit as powerfull options.

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  • Henk de Haan

    J M Smith

    Capture One also has the 'Express' license for Fujifilm, Sony and Nikon cameras (which is a free crippled version of Capture One Pro). It would be nice if this version could export edits made with the Pro version (but not be able to change them). In this way ex-subscription users (and users with old perpetual licenses) can still access their digital assets with the latest bugfixes.

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  • truepictures

    @ J M Smith
    "According to this page (https://helpx.adobe.com/manage-account/using/cancel-subscription.html), upon canceling a Creative Cloud subscription "You can continue to access all your photos on your local hard drive through Lightroom for the desktop. You can continue to import and organize photos and output your edited photos through Export, Publish, Print, Web, or Slideshow. Access to the Develop & Map modules and Lightroom for mobile is not available after your membership ends."

    Thank you for the link. I didn't know that in such detail. And this is exactly where the snag is: "Access to the Develop ... is not available after your membership ends."

    By far the most important and essential function of LR (and also CO) is image processing. And this is deactivated when the subscription is cancelled. I can only export the already processed images without further processing (development), but I cannot edit them and readjust them if necessary. This does not really help and would not be an advantage. For further processing of existing or new images, I would have to change to a new software in any case and then also migrate all existing images from LR to the new software.

    My suggestion would be that when the subscription is cancelled (after one year at the earliest), the range of functions of the image editing software is "frozen". However, the full range of functions would be retained at the time of cancellation. After all, one should have acquired this right of use after one year of subscription fees.
    If one wants to join again at a later date, one could then immediately benefit from new functions by subscription. But only after another 12 months of uninterrupted subscription would one have acquired a right of use with the full range of functions again after cancellation. I think that would serve both the company and the customer.

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  • J M Smith

    Info

    With LR when your subscription expires for whatever reason, you still have access to your edited images, you can print them and export them. Of course you cannot develop them, you are no longer paying for the software.

    With C1P you lose all access to your images when the subscription expires.

    This is horrible behavior from both companies but much worse from CO.

    After a year of subscription when you decide not to continue the subscription it should revert to a static perpetual license, with no updates but still usable.

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  • Mark Hopgood

    info. What you are describing is the current perpetual licence model, albeit at a lower cost as 1 year subscription is less than the upgrade cost.  Updates for a year then the use of that version as is until it breaks.  Rinse and repeat when a new version is worthwhile.

    I would prefer things remain as they are with the perpetual licence, however that is not going to happen.  I cannot buy into a system where I lose ALL functionality once I stop subscribing, or my internet connection fails to authenticate especially given the exorbitant prices currently charged compared to the opposition.

    Adobe promised to frequently update their products when moving to subscription.  They said a steady stream of income would facilitate this.  Anecdotally I hear that it is only in recent times that significant improvements to PS and especially LR have been implemented.  My take is it is the increasing competition that was the main driver for these improvements.  They must have been behind on their growth targets.

    I cannot see the new, yet to be revealed "loyalty program", being a better deal for customers than the perpetual licence otherwise they wouldn't change it despite their reasoning that its what we wanted.  Hopefully all will be revealed within the week and we can make our decisions.  It will also be interesting to watch Paul Reiffer's chat with the CEO.  

     

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  • bernhard sanders

    After more than 1 month now of confusion we can sum up that the relation and trust between a company and a lot of customers is destroyed. That is sad – and i agree with what Pip wrote in the last post.

    There is obviously no way back for the management after that 1 month of silence (and the announcement on the interview with the CEO on 2nd of Feb. - the day after the communicated changes will be valid!!

    It is - right now - just a big issue for perpetual license holders – but there is also fear by subscription users to run into dependencies where a way back out from the C1 universe in years may be very challenging.

    And there is an other reason that the perpetual license will go – imho C1 will have troubles to supply different versions – the installers for subscribers with new features and updates „when ready“ and one installer in which they have to withhold those upd(g)rades – far too complicate for them also in legal aspects (warranty).

    Next one: Support of DNG files. According to the Q&A on their website DNG Files are only supported if they were created by a supported camera. Having no unsupported file I could not check that, but (as an example) i can not open a Lumix S1R RAW directly in Photo Ninja – not supported. But converted with the Adobe DNG Converter Photo Ninja can open the file with no troubles at all.

    We all have loved (and still love) C1 for it‘s Image Quality – technical seen a really brilliant App, good UI, good results, one of the best. Thank you, C1, for that. And who ever is happy and wants to stay with C1 – great, go on. Without any sarcasms.

    One of the reasons i have bought C1 20 has been the fact that I work with Fuji x-Trans and years ago the Adobe ARC has delivered ugly and mushy results. So I went to Photo Ninja (great for x-Trans) and later to C1. Was happy. Love x-Trans.

    We all have been happy with C1 (may be more or less), and we tend to stay with things or Apps we are happy with. Technically seen. But the troubles we are complaining about here are completely of human, communication, missing respect and trust nature. A pitty that a great product created by great developers is going to be destroyed (for an unknown amount of customers) by greed and ignorance of investors.

    But they may not have taken into account that anger is a damn good reason to look for alternatives. I see this forum not just as a platform to get rid of anger, but also to try to understand what nature the anger of colleges are. And also to share workarounds.

    Thanks to C1 (not ironically meant) I have decided for me to keep my C1 22 perp. and I will not upgrade or subscribe under this circumstances. Certainly I have to alter my workflow. Only slightly, because thankfully enough I never trusted the DAM Feature in C1 after the MediaExpression disaster.

    Just playing a bit with Adobe Bridge and ARC 14.01. i have tried the enhancement feature (higher resolution) in Bridge – not expecting too much because I know that x-trans can be a bit tricky.

    But the result has blown me, is a game changer for me. The worm – problem – gone! Visible resolution – great.

    I have attached a screenshot (RAW taken with Fuji X-H1, XF 16mm f1,4 @5.6 - all settings and corrections in the enhanced and original file are exactly the same - up and downscaling from RAW - tif's completely untouched) – that speaks for itself. I know, it might look like pixel-peeping showing just that crops, but it certainly shows the capacity, just a start and may not work with every file, but very very promising.


    Here 2 Crops of the same szene with S1R FF and Zeiss 21 / Lumix 16-35 - enhanced as the Fuji H1 example.

    I know quite well, not everything in Photography is about resolution. But for color grading, skintones, sharpening and removing CA's  etc we have a lot of tools - demosaicing is a different story and more physically based. And at the end of the day - the Photo is what counts.



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  • Paul Reiffer

    bernhard sanders

    (and the announcement on the interview with the CEO on 2nd of Feb. - the day after the communicated changes will be valid!!)

    Actually, the timing is due to my own travel schedule (as the host of the session) as I'm out of the country until that date.  Rafael was happy to do it sooner, but it's not possible for me.

    No conspiracy there. 😎

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  • Jason Patel

    To be fair even if it was the day before they (C1) have already made their decisions at that point and would not change anything in 24 hours.  So on reflection that talk wont be very useful for anyone from my view that then is a PR exercise to take feedback for "Future" implementation - not too helpful with the situation we find ourselves in.  Not your problem Paul Reiffer but simply the reality of you facilitating the engagement.

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  • Paul Reiffer

    Jason Patel

    Well, the good news is, that talk isn't supposed to be focused on the licensing issue (with an awareness that it will undoubtedly crop up during discussion).  It's more to talk futures, tools, company, etc - and I guess by that point some people will have decided they don't want a part in that future, others will think otherwise and actively engage.  Life's about choices 'n all 👍

    In a way, I'll be glad to talk about something else.  This is feeling a little like Brexit right now...! 😂

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  • Weldon Thomson

    “ Life's about choices 'n all ”

    And, if you are a business, success or failure is very often dependent upon how you act to influences others choices.

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  • Michael Mazzola

    " This is feeling a little like Brexit right now...! 😂"

    Yes, ha ha. about as funny, banal and sad.

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  • bernhard sanders

    You'r right - i do not want to be a part of that (predictable) future. And please leave out that unfair comparison with the Brexit - the Brexit was based on massive none to missinformations. You are certainly free to talk about something else. I will be happy to read that. And i totally agree, live is about choices.

    -1
  • Claudia Mathys

    bernhard sanders so pls tell me, why the comparison with Brexit isn't good enough. You write it yourself: it was based on massive none to missinformations - I can't find any difference in this topic! ;-)

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  • bernhard sanders

    Claudia - thanks for asking, but it was not me mentioning the Brexit. And i just do not want to go in any discussion about that. The Brexit has left too many victims on all sides, and we are talking here just about a piece of great software and workarounds to live without it if our fear becomes true.

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  • bernhard sanders

    Some thoughts to Paul Reiffer as an ambassador.

    First a quote from Wikipedia:

    A brand ambassador (sometimes also called a corporate ambassador) is a person engaged by an organization or company to represent its brand in a positive light, helping to increase brand awareness and sales. The brand ambassador is meant to embody the corporate identity in appearance, demeanor, values and ethics.[1] The key element of brand ambassadors is their ability to use promotional strategies that will strengthen the customer-product-service relationship, influence a large audience to buy and consume more.

    Predominantly, a brand ambassador is known as a positive spokesperson, an opinion leader or a community influencer, appointed as an internal or external agent to boost product or service sales and create brand awareness. Today, "brand ambassador" as a term has expanded beyond celebrity branding to self-branding or personal brand management. Professional figures, such as good-will and non-profit ambassadors, promotional models, testimonials and brand advocates have formed as an extension of the same concept, taking into account the requirements of every company.

    The term brand ambassador loosely refers to a commodity which covers all types of event staff, varying between trade show hosts, in-store promotional members and street teams.[2] Previously, the job of a brand ambassador was undertaken typically by a celebrity or a public figure, who get paid adequately for their time and effort. Nowadays however, a brand ambassador can be anyone who has knowledge or can identify certain needs of the brand. The fashion industry still solely rely on celebrity clientele in order to remain brand ambassadors.[3] Furthermore, brand ambassadors are considered to be the key salesperson for a product or service on offer. They must remain well-informed when it comes to the brand they are representing, due to their nature of being the go-to person when questions arise from consumers.[4] The brand ambassador's job is to drive results through communication tools either publicly, such as social media, or privately including emails, messaging and further one-to-one channels.

    End of quote.

    As i have said before, your lessons and teaching us via video in using C1 is quite good and very helpful (Thanks for that) , C1 in general as a raw converter is great (apart from the DAM funktion), we all here love the results. And we all would like to continue with it under fair conditions - if C1 is able to re-create trust. Be it perpetual or subscription. Come on - you won’t buy a new car after a year just because the new one has some new features which can be added easily to the older one by upgrading – please accept that.

    I have also written, that we all here have very different needs, different workflows and we all have made „creative decisions“ in choosing C1 as one of the best RAW converters. Therefore - many thanks to the developers for the great job they have done. But creativity is about choices. And competition.

    I have written that only here on this forum and not on social media channels because i think it is the direct and best way to address the company. I have not browsed through social media to read about C1 – I never use any social media.

    You – as an ambassador – have said on Dec. 8th : ...Make decisions on facts. In the same video you have said (directly or between the lines) that you are in favor for subscriptions. And certainly – you said it - in your role as an ambassador you are pushing that more than the perpetual scheme.

    But in contrary to your video – choosing the perpetual license WAS a creative decision, because it is up to my needs and own creativity to decide to upgrade or not, and – that I can continue with my creative work as long as I want (with that version). Because I still run v15.0 and have activated all the 3 seatings offline, I do not depend on C1’s activation server. There is a big difference in the activation process for all versions from 15.1 – we are not able to activate them offline and therefore we depend on C1’s activation server from 15.1 ff.

    Creativity means for me to have a good choice of tools I can use. I am willing to buy different tools for different results, not just for legal reasons, but much more to honor the hard work of the developers. Meaning – C1 is great, but DxO is very promising, for some Photographs Adobes enhancement feature is simply stunning, Affinity seems to be on a great way, and I am sure there are other solutions on the way. All of them have pro’s and con’s. Adobe is a bit different, because you get LR, Bridge and the til now unbeaten industry standard PS for a fair price (creativity <> value) .

    It is creative as well to think by choosing your tools also in terms of the future. To avoid to run into dependencies blinded by some features witch might be not that important in a year - and with a hard way back. I can not imagine to see myself in a situation to have to pay for 5 or 8 subscriptions just to be shure to have access to edits I have done years ago. Means now – if I decide to stop to work with C1, I can still edit or reedit my work from the last 3 years even in 3 years. I know – it is in theory possible to save every single Photo as 16/48 bit, but I have thankfully learned in this forum that is not possible for some very good reasons for everyone. And C1 should take that into account.

    The only (hard) facts we had after Dec. 6th has been the announcement (irritating fact - right after black friday sale when people has upgraded!!!) of the oncoming changes and the Q&A. And that there will be a further announcement the day after the Feb. 1st deadline (only due to the thankfully massive complaints moved to mid Jan, and i have to apologize, I could not know that the date of Feb. 2nd interview is caused by your schedule).

    Therefore our complaints and anger is based on facts clearly communicated by C1. And it sounds a bit cynical, unfair and misleading if the ambassador is talking about speculating, creative choices, blaming people being on a crusade or mentioning the Brexit feeling in relation to the anger caused definitely by C1.

    Certainly – you (as a 95% Photographer) have to deal with that anger of maybe some 150 angry customers as a 5% ambassador – in this case not a job i would like to do. But imho you (as an ambassador) are left alone by C1 in this role as a bumper between a greedy investment company (nowadays) and the customers, who are in fear about their dependencies on C1. Therefore I feel sincerely sorry for you. If you had communicated as a Photographer and not as an ambassador, it would have been a different story.

    As I have said above, I always have liked your videos about how to use C1, and this here is in no meaning a crusade against you as a person, but it is criticism (based on facts we know and can read) of your role as an ambassador of C1. In contrary - waiting for an loyalty scheme announcement for 6 or 7 weeks creates indeed and understandable some speculation.

    Everything you communicate as an Photographer with his own needs and workflows is obviously true and of value for you in that role – but as an ambassador you should be able to respect the different needs, workflows, fears or wishes of all the indeed creative customers who has made C1 big with their support.

    Isn’t the role of an ambassador mainly communication?

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  • Paul Reiffer

    That's quite the letter, bernhard sanders!

    So, to repeat what I've said before on this page, as well as other forums and groups - my position (as an ambassador): 😉

    1. I believe the way this announcement was made (with a key piece of information missing) was badly handled and caused unnecessary speculation and concern that could have been resolved by either delaying the announcement itself, or presenting it with full details. That was a huge error in my view, and I've not hidden that opinion. Indeed - I said exactly that on day 1, in the video to which you refer.
    2. The announcement does not affect over 50% of users who are already subscribers. Personally, I couldn't care less what licensing route people choose to take (you've misquoted me above, I said there is clearly a steer from Capture One towards subscriptions, I don't personally care either way) - life's about choices. I hope that people choose the right tool for their creativity, that presents a value proposition they're happy with.
    3. Of those potentially affected, due to item 1 above, we (collectively) have no idea to what extent they will be affected. It could be a minor negative effect, it could be a minor positive effect - or major - but nobody knows, and will not know until next week.
    4. Many of those affected are running old versions - 20, 21, 22 (I know this from those who have reached out directly, or explained their setup) - and so the impact on them is negligible as they have already made the same decision to not take future upgrades or bug fixes with every release, instead to upgrade on their own timetable (which is what the new model will also allow).
    5. As a result of all of the above, I don't agree that speculation gains (or has gained) anything in this process.
    6. do believe the subscription model should be reviewed in order to ensure there's not a "cliff edge" when people stop subscribing, something I've discussed in huge detail in our own facebook group that spans from the editing sessions you watch.
    7. While people may feel they're in the "majority" of user opinion, the numbers of people commenting in such terms don't match the overall user numbers in any way, not even close. It doesn't mean they're not the majority - but it does mean we don't know, so nobody should be speaking from a position that suggests they represent the entire user base without knowledge that they definitely are.

    I think that's about it, from my view. Nothing more, nothing less - as an ambassador, a photographer and a (license purchasing) customer of Capture One myself.

    Have a good evening 🙂

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Paul, regarding your point7:

    Opinion details may vary, but the common denominator is if you take something away from people, the majority of people will be unhappy with this. That's simple psychology. There is no reason to believe photographers or editors are from a different kind of people/customers, psychologically. And the relative number of people complaining compared in relation to all commenters IS the vast majority. You could not be more wrong, based on this fact.

     

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  • Paul Reiffer

    BeO

    While I'm (as above) very wary of drawing conclusions - the above conclusion is also risky.

    Look at one of TripAdvisor's (and Yelp's) most prevalent issues: It's *not* fake reviews.  It's that there's a natural bias for negativity when it comes to people voicing their opinion online.

    If something upsets us, we're 5x, 10x, 20x (depending on which science you follow) more likely to hit the keyboard than you are if you're either satisfied or happy.

    We (as customers) know that over 50% of customers who are subscribers are unaffected, so at most, if every single perpetual license user complained - it's still under 50% of the community.  (Hence, literally not "wrong" 😎)

    That said, I wouldn't want to predict, or conclude, anything from such an incredibly small sample as the 150-200 people (not comments) on here out of the entire user community.

    Do I think many perpetual users will be "happy" with the change? I don't know - because without the details of the loyalty programme, we don't know what that change IS. 😉

    Are they happy with the assumed change? Some of them are clearly not - but I (and you) couldn't possibly quantify that number or percentage in any relevant way.

    For clarity, I'm not saying I disagree with your prediction/observation - I'm saying neither of us know. (I just wish they'd published the full facts last month!)

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  • Weldon Thomson

    “an incredibly small sample as the 150-200 people (not comments) on here out of the entire user community.“

    I don’t entirely disagree, but the danger is perceiving the “relatively small number” as unimportant, whether as percentage of posters or percentage of users.

    Yelp and other review services also seem to have quite a lot of insincere, sometimes paid, favorable reviewers as well as many negative reviewers. One should not discount the other.

    Non license users (subscribers) should very well be paying attention to this, both what C1 is doing as well as how they have done it, as it will affect them too, probably in more ways than is obvious.

    A company not to be trusted is something that all capture one users should be aware of. If C1 throws one user group under the bus, why shouldn’t another user group fear being next in line for the pleasure.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Firstly, the drawbacks are conerning about half of the customers which have a perpetual license. As C1 does not take away anything from subscribers, this cannot be the total number you are referring to when assessing the "majority", this would totally skew the perspective. That's like slapping in the face of any those perpetual license holders who feel set back.

    And my point is about the current situation and currently known facts (massive price increase in the last years, rise and fall of brand specific versions (the brand versions approx. as expensive as the pro version had been before), no feature updates and shortend bug fix period if you don't upgrade to the next feature version.

    Whether or not the loyalty program compensates for this remains to be seen. Potentially for the majority of perpetual license holders, potentially for the minority. Majority, minority, I couldn't care less, I jugde for myself, but point 7 could not be left unanswered.


    I don't know who brought this up, I think it was you as a reply to somebody who might have been more "general" with his phrasing than you liked, but I wonder why you care about such things, actually.

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  • Lost Carrier

    Paul Reiffer When Adobe switched Lightroom to CC-only I did not complain to any community or something, but I (silently) switched to Capture One - and I would guess this will always be the behaviour of the vast majority of whatever category of users.

    However - you're right: since we do not know the details, yet, this is mostly speculations up to now. It might in-deed even turn out slightly postive for perpetual licence holders/buyers ... althought this is rather unlikely - I think we all agree here.

    As a hobbyist C1P is already insanely expensive and actually a bit overcomplicated (the downside of being more powerful ;-) ). LR might be better suited anyway - if Adobe would only offer some better licence model. But if C1P now also screws up the license model (perpetual becoming effectively-subscription or s.th.), well...

    This was probably speculated before, but re your point 1): I actually think (as in "speculate"!) it was on puropse to split up announcement an communication of details. C1P PMs are most probably (silently but eagerly) monitoring all the discussions just to estimate how far they can push it...

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  • Paul Reiffer

    BeO

    I don't know who brought this up, I think it was you as a reply to somebody who might have been more "general" with his phrasing than you liked, but I wonder why you care about such things, actually.

    It wasn't something I brought up - it was in response to an exceptionally long critique of my specific position by Bernhard, above 😂

    And as per my previous notes, I'm always happy to respond to any specific questions that are directed to me. But it'll only ever be my opinion, nothing more and nothing less 👍

    -1
  • Paul Reiffer

    Lost Carrier On your last point - you may well be right. We don't know, but the "test the water" approach has been done before - while it can work, the risk is that the process of testing the water itself does more damage than the decision that's ultimately made...

    But yes, hopefully next week everything will become a lot clearer, and a more rational and transparent conversation (and decision-making process) can be embarked upon by all. 👍

    (And indeed, it's those who move silently who are the real worry - a bit like the "middle voters" in any democracy. Those on either side tend to be vocal and entrenched, it's those who "float" without mention that can often make the biggest difference!)

    -1
  • Lost Carrier

    Paul Reiffer

    the risk is that the process of testing the water itself does more damage than the decision that's ultimately made...

    Well... comparing this thread to others on this community, I'd say: yes - damage has been made...

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  • bernhard sanders

    ......... the risk is that the process of testing the water itself does more damage than the decision that's ultimately made...

    Well - a decision was made 37 days ago and clearly communicated. We have to see it as a fact. The only open point is the announcement of a loyalty programme, which has been vague for 37 days. But i won't expect it to be a real game changer.

    Please be fair and do not try to blame us - the vocal and entrenched - for "more damage" probably to come by "testing the water". Indeed we are not the unpredictable floating middle who are "causing the real worries". You should love that as we are predictable in our decision. We have fears to loose a great app and have all rights to communicate that rather than sitting on the sofa twiddling our thumbs until the grace of a loyalty plan is communicated to us. We all have better and more creative things to do.

     

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  • Weldon Thomson

    In my view, they should not be blaming anyone but themselves. It is difficult, at best, to believe that C1 did not discuss, research, plan for, and know full well the reaction their announcement, without details, would stir. I find it equally hard to believe they haven’t known exactly what their “loyalty program” would be, so as they could communicate it at the same time, even if they may have since decided to rethink it somewhat based on the reaction.

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  • J M Smith

    Weldon,

    Guaranteed none of this debacle was a mistake. It was certainly planned in detail.

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  • Shane Baker

    J M Smith

    Guaranteed none of this debacle was a mistake. It was certainly planned in detail.

    Agreed. Meaning that this would have been planned over some months - ie: before the release of V23.

     

     

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  • Thomas Pietsch

    I ask several times, but did not get an answer to my question: Why do you need to change the perpetual license model to be able to release new features? 

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  • truepictures

    Thomas Pietsch

    There is a simple reason why you have not yet received an answer to this question: there is simply no reason. Or rather, from a technical point of view, there is no reason. This reasoning is meant to impress those who do not know how the technology behind it works in order to disguise the fact that there is no reason.

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