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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1064 comments

  • ernst.w

    @Paul Reiffer

    Thank You for giving us information how C1 subscription works really.

    On the other hand updating perpetuum license is not in every case bug fixing. The Mist recent versions 22 and 23 do work Stanley. But in the past - over years - updates often brought bugs at features that did work very well before. At least in the Windows versions.

    So sometimes no update (= no new feature too) could to be the better way. Not generally, but I do not see the problem You see.

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  • J M Smith

    Paul,

    I think that you will find in a production environment that they (people and companies) are loath to upgrade to the latest version of editing software.  Too many times the update breaks something that is being used to produce images, videos, etc.  A company that I worked with (not for) would not upgrade MacOS until the x.3 release and only after extensive testing, likewise their image/video editing software was always at least one release behind and upgraded only after extensive testing.  

    Production environments have been stung too many time by hastily released updates.

    Ps. Response to an earlier post:  Tin foil hat on; or maybe the EU software producers want this new "warrantee" rule in place to justify the need to move to a subscription model... Tin foil hat off...

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    @Paul Reiffer

    Thanks for link.

    This existence of this relatively new law reinforces my assumption that the loyalty program will probably be some kind of maintenance contract with a monthly or yearly fee which allows you to install the latest C1 software including bug fixes and new features, so C1 will only have one code branch to maintain and get some compensation (the maintenance fee) for their effort and legal obligation. It would have to be a high fee, or time-limited, to pay out for C1. We will have a clearer picture after the C1 imposed speculation period will have ended in mid January.

     

     

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  • Ari Kangas

    Paul Reiffer You're absolutely right on both accounts - and thank you for correcting my assumption of the SaaS option. At least the rich people have a way to control what they use. 

    What comes to my situation: Yes, I'm aware I haven't received updates for a while. I'm also aware when I paid for the license I got a full year's updates and bug fixes for the software. I would've upgraded at some point but all of a sudden I didn't get any more emails from C1 so I wasn't really even aware something had changed: up to that point they had been happy enough to inform me of updates and offer good deals for upgrade. I paid ~100e for the v20 upgrade - I had used the Sony only version until then as I needed nothing more and was basically forced to upgrade to Pro when they discontinued those. I did get a small discount code after complaining about this but it doesn't change the fact that >200e for upgrade is out of my budget. I started looking at this because my computer is at it's last legs, I'd need to upgrade to macOS Ventura anyway, and my camera is the latest model supported by v20. So whatever I do I'd need an upgrade anyway. I've managed to upgrade my camera by trading out some less used lenses and I've tried to buy used laptops to keep the costs down, but even with all that there's no extra 200e to be found for C1 update. That is, if I want to eat, too. I toyed with the idea of going back to LR but that 150e/year isn't any better. I tried Darktable(?) or something that was free but as it didn't have any DAM it didn't really work for me. I bought Luminar 3 when they advertised their coming DAM but that was a total failure and after that they've just ignored all bugs and pushed new paid versions of their software instead. I don't want to support that. Now it feels to me Capture One is doing the exact same thing, just for double the price. 

    I don't have my hopes up for the loyalty plan as they have multiple times pointed out they think the subscription is the best and most cost effective way to go. I can live without new features, but I do want bugs fixed for more than a few months. 

    The main problem is that they at the same time increase the cost and lower the value. That alone is very off-putting. 

    Anyway, I'm not their target audience so there's no point for me to complain about this any more. I spent huge amount of time looking for a replacement for Lightroom back in the day and finally ended up with C1. Now I have to do the same work again, and hope I can find something that fits my budget. C1 isn't it. 

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  • ernst.w

    @...

     when they can get so so much more with Adobe for 11.99 euro

    It is not so easy for everyone as you think. And it is not so easy for everyone as Paul Reiffer thinks.

    First: Adobe gives us more than Lightroom alone, yes. It gives us Photoshop too. And the monthly rate is affordable. BUT Adobe Lightroom does not give You the same flexibility of working with colors. This means, I would to have spend a lot more time to get similiar results as from Capture One, which gives me theese results by few clicks. This may not be such a mess for people wanting to work out their holiday photos, of course.

    Second: There are different demands from different photographers. Not every software comes close to that.

    The way Paul Reiffer goes on with "perfect worked out" images ist one way. He "TIFFens" his images when they are finished. He archieves and get all output right from there. So he is rather independent from what's going on with software. I TIFFen my images for archieving too - but cannot get every output from there as Paul does. The reason is that I have to work out images due to the method they are to get printed. Offset printing needs CMYK color space, fine art printing needs RGB - and different color profiles dependuing on the material You are printing on. And it needs different adjustments to get perfect color in CMYK or in RGB (even sRGB x can nedd different adjustments to Adobe RGB - depending on existing colors). Therefore it is important for me to get my hands to the adjustments before output in many cases.

    People are different as requirements can be too.

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  • Jiri Skorepa

    Ari Kangas Take a look at Affinity Photo by Serif.

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  • Henk de Haan

    @BeO, in the Perpetual license model Capture One isn't allowed to charge any maintenance fee. If you buy a product it should include 2 years of basic support (bugfixes, OS-support and maybe also camera/lens updates). In this regard there is no difference between software and hardware (e.g. a camera, mobile phone or car)!

    One thing CO could do is make the availability of the new feature dependent on your license. So if version 16.x+1 is released with bugfixes and a great new feature every 16.x user should be able to use it. The great new feature is only available to subscription licenses and to new perpetual licenses, while the bugfixes are available to every 16.* licensee.

    If CO wants to implement 'breaking' changes (e.g. a completely new UI) they can release a 17.x version and keep the 16.x version in maintenance mode for a couple of years.

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  • Henk de Haan

    @...

    when you refer to 'great new features', that would include things such as the ability to change the time on a photo ( as was one of the 6 great new features offered in v23). 

    Why not? It can be important to a few users and not to most other ones. Other new features can be attractive to other users and some users find none of the new features worth while. The same goes with every other software update. I hope CO has some other great features in development, which were not completely done for v16.0, but will become available in v16.1.

    In a competitive market a company has to roll out appealing new features if they want to survive. This is independent of the licensing model: (new) perpetual licenses, upgrades and pricy subscriptions. Only a few pros are willing to shelf out 20 euro per month just to keep the software running.

    The thing is C23 also contains bug fixes like 'issue during activation, whereby the error message: "Something unexpected happened. Please contact support" would be shown'. This fix is withheld from C22 users, which is probably illegal!

     

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Henk de Haan

    One thing CO could do is make the availability of the new feature dependent on your license.

    Absolutely. They could do this, technically this is not a problem.

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  • ALESSIO FURLAN

    I just got the refund of the paid license from Paypal.

    Be careful that the steps to be made are two:

    1. The payment is contested first. Paypal asks you to hear the seller to find a solution.

    2. Then he converts into a complaint indicating the reasons. I indicated the change of license conditions "after" the purchase. At this point Paypal analyzes the practice.

    There are 30 days from the dispute to transform it into a complaint.

    I received the refund today after about 1-2 weeks from the transformation into a complaint.

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  • J M Smith

    Alessio

    I did the same thing with my credit card provider, they closed the case within about 3 days and made the refund permanent.  I used the same argument, a licensing change after and extended marketing push, the CC company agreed.

    I just cannot believe that CO did not see this anger coming...

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  • Permanently deleted user

    Even the fact they opened this thread 16 days ago and all the anger is in the one place. It's a wonder it hasn't been closed.

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  • Thomas Kyhn Rovsing Hjørnet
    Top Commenter

    John Harper:

    Even the fact they opened this thread 16 days ago and all the anger is in the one place. It's a wonder it hasn't been closed.

    Perhaps they prefer having a good part of the anger confined to this thread – which relatively few users see – rather than have it on social media where it would get a lot more exposure.

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  • Paul Reiffer

    @Pip

    You might be surprised at how many people have both Capture One *and* Adobe licenses for professional work.

    In the industry, Photoshop still absolutely rules, so there's quite a bit of overlap already in terms of people paying twice for a raw platform (one in Capture One that they use, and Lightroom that comes with their PS/All Apps subscription, which gets ignored in that scenario). 

    So there are many cases where people, even when faced with having Lightroom sat there for free, will still choose to use Capture One for its improved image output and workflow.

    -1
  • Paul Reiffer

    @Henk de Haan

    Yeah - I fear the new EU ruling could make software releases (and the associated management of them) more complicated, not less - for both the user AND developer.

    We'll see how this plays out - in theory all software developers should be operating in this way already, so I'd love to see some examples of any companies who've changed approach as a result. Could be an interesting comparison case.

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  • Permanently deleted user

    May be - on the other side we all know that there will be very rarely bug free software - too much depends not just on the specific software but more on how well that software works in the environment of the OS, Hardware and devices.

    And there are vendors who are doing extremely well with listening to their customers, fixing bugs and delivering updates and have a fair price scheme like Vuescan or iMatch, just to name 2 of them  - since many many years. They are for sure doing their really best to solve problems rather then creating them. It seems they are full of passion and not that greedy. They are widely very well respected. Anyone using an old scanner knows what i am talking about.

    We are talking here not about the undoubtly high quality of C1 results and everyone using software would forgive the vendor that bugs, we -  be it 150 or 698 - are talking about how a company is treating their customers.

     

     

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  • Thomas Kyhn Rovsing Hjørnet
    Top Commenter

    Pip:

    I dont think anyone here would argue that C1 is not a good product. 

    The reactions to the new, not yet disclosed license plan is also about the quality of the product and what is essentially a part of the product: customer support and the company's generel treatment of and communication with its customers. And yes, Capture One is in some regards a good product, but in other regards, it's not at all a good product. If the application itself, customer support, etc., had been better, the reactions to a price hike/less beneficial perpetual licenses probably would have been less negative.

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  • Permanently deleted user

    Right, and it is particularly annoying when a company removes the offline activation option of v15.0 AFTER they released and sold it. I have bought C1 and 22 upgrade because i had that activation option ! And C1 should not be entitled to judge my favour for offline after sales. If they have announced that change before my purchase, i would have stayed with 21. Result: That means for me: no update, not even a v15 bug fix. Not even to 15.1.

    I want to wish all here and their families by heart a merry, happy and peaceful (most important nowadays) Christmas and a good, healthy and prosperous New Year. And - certainly - great photographic results independent which tools you are using.

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  • Weldon Thomson

    Curious if anyone/everyone else got a “3 minute survey” from capture one, yesterday? From the questions, I thought it seemed they could easily have gotten what they were looking for just by reading through the many comments in this thread.

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  • J M Smith

    I did not get the 3 minute survey, but I also back charged my credit card for the V23 upgrade...  So I may be persona non grata with CO, hahahahahaha...

     

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  • ernst.w

    @Weldon Thompson

    No, I did not. Could You tell us more about?

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  • Thomas Kyhn Rovsing Hjørnet
    Top Commenter

    Me neither.

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  • Permanently deleted user

    In response to https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/7998068628637/comments/8429230911773 - Nope.

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  • Weldon Thomson

    Email received yesterday, 12/22, with subject ‘please help us improve capture one’

    “This is Christine, Head of Customer Success at Capture One, and I’m currently working on the Capture One experience.

    As we're constantly working to make Capture One the best platform when it comes to editing RAW images, I’d love for you to answer this 3-minute survey.

    Your opinion helps us develop Capture One into a tool that truly suits your needs.
    How likely is it that you would recommend Capture One to a friend or a colleague?
    0 -> Not likely at all
    10 -> Most likely”

    Additional questions followed, after (likely dependent on, initial question response.

    The wording and line of inquiry just seemed a bit “off”, to me. Capture One is, arguably, already one of the best raw image editing platforms. I feel that the problems they are having now are not with the product so much as the need for reliability and accessibility of that platform which users have, and will have, a great deal of time, effort, and money invested in. More so under a subscription model, the provide both a product AND a service. I don’t sense that they get that. Nor do I think they get that the problem, in that regard, is now customer trust in their being there, and continuing to fulfill and maintain that service consistently and affordably into the future. They seem all to willing to jerk users/customers around.

    Everyone’s worst nightmare, when every camera manufacturer started coming out with their own proprietary RAW image architecture, was that the camera companies would stop supporting them at some point and/or photographers would somehow lose access to their digital negatives. Adobe tried to address that with DNG, which introduced other problems, primarily with extra workflow and questions of quality loss as well as some distrust of Adobe, and it never really caught on as a universal raw file architecture. Kinda seems like this fiasco with Capture One, with people becoming dependent on their proprietary catalogue management and structure, is not that different.

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  • ernst.w

    Thanks for information and Your estimation!

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  • Permanently deleted user

    And we have experiences - may i just remind what has happened with media expression after it was bought off or taken over by C1.

    IView media pro was quite ok (certainly not everyone 1st choice) - the successor Media expression distributed by MS for nothing, was ok as well - in the following C1 times, when you had to buy it, it went worth and worth, with every release - stopped after a while. I understand, the structure was hard to implement into C1 RAW. Today - no support at all, not even when you had lost your serial (Quote from C1 Q&A). But sometimes i use media expression (MS-Version) even today for certain special purposes thanking the Lord that i did not spend any money on one of the C1 versions. And - not to forget - there was a slim reader Version avaliable for Media Expression Cats.

    Again from my perspective - C1, your RAW engine is great (amongst others ie we have a choice), imho remove the DAM functionality which is, afaik, not compatible with most other professional DAM-s ( Virtual copies and Versions), offer that instead as an extra (Version Plus like Photomechanic does), and concentrate on further improvement on IQ results for C1 minus DAM for a reasonable price as perpetual. Than WE would have a choice what to buy.

    And - regarding DNG files - please read the Q&A on C1 Help HP Does not sound that great.

    Again - wish you all great and happy Christmas.

     

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  • Michael Mazzola

    Just to say that since all this began, what used to be a moment of anticipation and excitement - opening a catalogue to dive in to my images - now produces anxiety and queasiness: what will I do with the +100K images in Capture One Catalogs? Am I doomed to pass them all through my LR? DXO has come knocking and I am evaluating their version 6. First raw converter I have used which competes @ the C1 level, and the included noise reduction tools are ludicrously powerful.

    I'll miss those C1 quick keys, but I sure won't miss anyone/thing who talks loyalty scheme out the side of their (corporate) face.

    My loyalty is earned by you, Capture One, not, as you infer, the other way around.

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  • Ludvik Gomulski

    Well said Michael!

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  • Francesco Terracciano

    Forcing perpetual license owners towards subscription, how many of new subscriber do they need to break even?

    Making some calculations, based on their statement (50% of perpetual licenses) and current prices, the result depends on perpetual licenses upgrade average time.

    If it is 2 years they need 40%, but considering 3 years it leads to 25% only.

    It is a very simple model but, considering last case, they may afford to lose half of the perpetual license owners.

    It's just speculation but I guess we (perpetual license owners) are unfortunately likely to loose.

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  • Thomas Kyhn Rovsing Hjørnet
    Top Commenter

    @Francesco Terracciano

    Regarding the distribution of license types, a poll from a few days ago in the Paul Reiffer Live - The Photographic Community group on Facebook (no idea how representative this is):

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