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New License Model: Changes to the way licensing, updates, and upgrades work

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1064 comments

  • Permanently deleted user

    I’ve just subscribed to the Photoshop/Lightroom model for the first time, $12.49AU per month, 2 cups of coffee, how cheap’s that.

    Capture One has made no move to improve their software since they shafted their dedicated perpetual customers.

    Photoshop/Lightroom are streets ahead and that includes the iPad app thrown in.

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  • Medea Pers

    Sure, Capture One is more expensive. But google Capture One vs Lightroom, and C1 comes out as the winner. See for yourself. 

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  • Jochen Schmidt

    A winner via Google? That doesn’t do much for me. After being Johnny come Lately on the iPad, they managed to betray their customer base by entering on a full scale subscription system that even lets Adobe, the former bad guy look like an angel.

    Now Capture One is somewhat of an expensive one trick pony. It really has a good RAW engine but anything else is mediocre. The RAW engine isn’t worth the money over that of Adobe. I could live with it on the old license scheme… somewhat expensive but it also was supporting a vendor who doesn’t rip the customers via subscriptions. Ha!

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  • Jeffrey Kogler

    @Mariusz Janosz, I'm interested in seeing new functionality also.  Because I purchased v23 I am holding off until September to make a decision about its use going forward.  What functionality is added/improved between now and then is a major factor in that decision.  In the meantime I am putting aside $AU15 a week to purchase a newer incarnation of the software if I judge it to be value for money, or if not I will have some cash ready to access alternatives.

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  • John Romer

    I admit I am opposed to the changes and complained early and often. I also use Photoshop all the time. So the decision is Capture One vs. Lightroom. A few years ago, we are all incensed when Adobe changed the policy on owning the app. Have we all forgotten that? We all have the right to be angry and keep venting. Go for it. Capture One has been slow to make changes, and it always feels they have held back things for the next upgrade fee. I hate that more than the subscription. Lightroom is not for everyone.

    Capture One Live is still half-baked. Frame.io is still half-baked.  It is integrated to Capture One and other applications and platforms. But it does not support many camera systems, but as you point out, you can use an Atomos recorder. They are not that expensive in the scheme of things. It is more video-focused based so does not figure in my photo stream at this point.

    How many of us are using Capture One for video? Not this user.  So not sure this would weigh on my decisions either way. Did it use development resources? Yes it did. Point taken. 

    Is $179 a year vs $120 a year so much different it puts your business under? Are you incensed due to the change? Ok. Were you incensed when Adobe changed policy? Swore you were gone forever? You are back?

    Not a fan boy. I help start the fires long ago, but this message stream is concentrated with the group of people incensed and leaving. I will just throw out some other ideas. I can use Lightroom. I have had access for many years. Meh. I went to CO when Apple abandoned Aperture and me. Any company can change. How many of you went to Windows because Aperture went away? Some I am sure. I went to CO from Aperture because they alone had a path for Aperture users.

    Just thoughts. Debates are made to be two-sided. Debaters don't need to be only on one side.

    If you are incensed now were you incensed with Adobe? Apple? 1Password? Any of a hundred or more other companies that changed their model? At least there is an opportunity to own a license. I will point that out.

    I know everyone can argue every point I make. There are nuances to any decision. 

    Make your informed decision and go with it. 

     

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  • Jochen Schmidt

    You cannot compare Adobe here with CO. Yes many people were angry with the way Adobe has gone to subscription… but thing is… they were leading in this. PhaseOne did lure Adobe users into a non-subscription offering. Apple did just cancel a product. They didn’t lure people into it and then did throw them before the bus.

    I‘m not angry at PhaseOne. I just can clearly say that their product isn’t worth that much money and that Adobe indeed offers MUCH more for less money.

    But that’s not the whole story. If I think back at the development story of CO I clearly can see that there is little chance the software can keep up with the future. All they’ve done in the last years is moving some buttons and views around. When I started, their database code was horrible. It was clear why it was that dog slow. Still until today the software is all but fast.

    Not having an iPad app for years was also a clear sign. What we got now is half arsed.

    Adobe is doing research on generative AI models and lots of other stuff. I‘m very certain that PhaseOne sleep on all of this too.

    I also switched from Aperture to CO - at the start it did look like they go into the right direction. Not anymore.

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  • J M Smith

    @...

    Yeah they have to deliver meaningful, full featured updates.  They have to fix the catalog once and for all and they have to stop making meaningless or half baked features.

    I think CO has painted COP into a corner, they do not have the financial firepower to do the necessary research that Adobe can do.

    I have contended all long that CO's PE owner (Axcel) is looking to exit.  CO will either be sold or will merge with another company.  They might just fade away as well, but I don't see that happening.  But change is coming and that is usually never good for users.

    I wasn't happy about making the switch to LR/PS, but I am actually now ecstatic, the apps are rock solid, the edits are great and the cost is a fraction COP's cost.

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  • Jochen Schmidt

    Maybe Apple buys them and labels it Aperture Pro X 😅

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  • J M Smith

    Hahahahahahaha...

    Maybe Black Magic Designs

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  • J M Smith

    New LR announcement...

    Adobe Lightroom Adds New AI Innovations and Improved Masking

    The article is on PetaPixel, I will post the link in another post.  If it doesn't show up then head over to petapixel and you will find it.

    Adobe is on fire!!!

     

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  • J M Smith

    @...

    I am ecstatic with LR (are there bugs and issues? sure).  There is nothing that COP can do that LR cannot do and LR's catalog works.

    I resorted to a new CO catalog for every single shoot to try to mitigate the instability of COP's catalog system.  A complete rewrite of the catalog subsytem is imperative.  Looks like that is not going to happen

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  • FirstName LastName

    I have no problem about a company making profits. It’s a good thing for development.

    However, don’t listen to accountants who will convince you that the subscription model works. This model is the lazy way out of thinking creatively and is purely short term in nature.

    Take on Apples old marketing slogan “Think Different”.  You will make more money in the long run.

    Best wishes,

    G

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    Perpetual users particularly those that only upgrade every two or three cycles are nothing more than distraction to Capture One.

    Why do you think they are a distraction? I doubt that they impose more work than those upgrading every year or subscribers, but account for probably around 20% of the revenue (roughly following your math). This percentage of revenue is not nothing; other companies do flips and twists to get 20% more revenue.

    And 20% of new users go the perpetual license route, according to that poll. This also is not nothing. But these numbers might not be very reliable. And decisions are sometimes biased and / or decision makers often follow their own agenda. We will have to wait until the future is the past, to see what happened.

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  • J M Smith

    BeO

    I didn't actually do the math in this post, the anaylis is fairly long.  If I can find my previous post where I actually did the analysis I will repost it.

    1.  Neither Axcel nor potential buyers when Axcel exits like inconsistent revenue streams, i.e., perpetual models (exit multiples will suffer).  Without referring back to my analysis I don't remember the exact number but it only takes a small number of perpetual licensees to convert to subscription and they are back to their baseline revenue.  Potential buyers would rather see a consistent revenue stream rather than a lumpy revenue stream and even better if a year or so after conversion that the revenue stream is equal to or great than before the conversion.  Remember, no one cares about the bottom line, it is all about revenue growth and strong EBITDA.  A perpetual model supports neither.

    2.  The code base slightly diverges.

    3.  The business model for both schemes diverges.

    4.  The support model diverges

    5.  I have no inside information but based on prior experience, I would expect the perpetual margins to be half the subscription margins.

    6.  I suspect in a year or so CO will completely cease the perpetual model.

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  • J M Smith

    BeO

    Hahahahahahaha

    Yeah just like Adobe did, they will probably at some point announce that Version xxx will be the last perpetual version...  I suspect once they get enough subscribers that is when they will terminate the perpetual model.

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  • Permanently deleted user

    I believe Capture One are feeling the pinch, sometime ago they offered me 6 months free subscription, no way known would I revert back.

    They have done nothing to upgrade to new features since this all started.

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  • Edwardsson

    I’m still using C1. Even switched to a subscription since I get a 65% discount as a teacher. For my workflow, C1 works like a charm together with Affinity Photo.

    Without the discount, I would probably stay with C1 22, since the price should be too high for my needs to pay full price. 

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

     

    Yeah just like Adobe did, they will probably at some point announce that Version xxx will be the last perpetual version...  I suspect once they get enough subscribers that is when they will terminate the perpetual model.

    Yes, but what about their 'promise' that you get a discount on a perpetual license after 5 years of subscription?

    Isn't it sad that so many customers, including me, think about the company that way? It has it roots in how they treated us in the recent years. 

    But I am still hoping their math will come to the conclusion to keep the perpetual license model even in many years time. That could be the only reason for them, being owned by private equity investors. The more people subscribe though the more unlikely this will be.

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  • woefi

    That does not sound very reliable. What will the price be if people buy it, and than the next year?

    Yeah, discounts are always appreciated but as a professional you need reliability in the license costs for some years ahead. So you know you can safely invest your time to learn/master the software.

    I want to balance my expectations of "how much progress the software makes" with "the amount of money invested in that time"

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    The discount is for one year of subscription only, a marketing teaser.

    They want to have as many converts (from perpetual license to subscription) as possible. Perpetual license is still € 349,00.

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  • Bill

    The Canadian $ pricing is $14.76, so the same as $10.44 US$ billed yearly, for a total of $125USD. How on earth are they justifying the perpetual license price of $299??? Yes, perpetual will always exist, they will, however be exorbitantly priced compared to the subscription.

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  • J M Smith

    BeO

    Right now in the US you can purchase a perpetual license for $179.40.  A 40% discount on the normal $299.00.

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  • Steve Oakley

    who cares. my guess is they lost a large part of their user base doing this. gone. its easy to loose a customer, hard to gain one. its been an epically dumb move. with people waking up and realizing what a bad deal it is and all the problems subscriptions create. this is 5 years late to the game which is on its tail end I think. maybe in another year they wake up and go back to the old model if they are still in business. I moved on to another product but continue to open C1 here and there for old projects. sad because it really is a great product.

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  • Medea Pers

    Here in the Netherlands the perpetual license is 349 euro, that is in dollars 370,08. Month, billed yearly: 12,78 euro that is in dollar: 13,55. 

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    J M Smith

    Thanks. When logged in, I see the full price in Euro. I am quite sure my current license is not eligble for a reduced upgrade price.

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  • BeO
    Top Commenter

    It seems at least they bettered the terms with regards to keeping the old perpetual license, if I remember right that was not possbile when they announced the policy changes. That's what I see:

    Use code XXX and get 30% off when you buy an annual Capture One Pro or All in One subscription. Don't worry, you'll still keep your current perpetual license.

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  • mattspace

    Rainer Schmidt As mentioned earlier in this thread (assuming it wasn't deleted), if you're an EU (and some other jurisdictions) customer, Capture One is legally required to fix any and all Capture One bugs in the software, for a period of two (or more or less) years after purchase, and in the narrowest definition, so long as you remain on an operating system version that was listed as "Supported" at the time of purchase.

    Whether Capture One provides these bug fixes by issuing patches to the version you own, or by giving you a newer version of the software which contains a fix, what they are not entitled to do is say "we fixed this, but the fix is only available in an update for which you have to pay more money". Companies are not generally allowed to profit from remediating faulty products.

    IF the flaw is fixed in a version that was a paid upgrade, and it has been less than two years, and Capture One will not give you a fix, seek a refund of your original purchase, and then re-buy the software. If the flaw hasn't been fixed, and there's no fix on the horizon, maybe seek the refund anyway and potentially re-buy to reset your two year counter.

    As long as Capture One (or indeed any software company) insists on selling flawed products, you as a consumer can enforce your legal rights to seek no-cost redress until you have a working product of merchantable quality for the duration of its statutory warranty.

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  • Permanently deleted user

    As mentioned earlier in this thread (assuming it wasn't deleted), if you're an EU (and some other jurisdictions) customer, Capture One is legally required to fix any and all Capture One bugs in the software, for a period of two (or more or less) years after purchase, and in the narrowest definition, so long as you remain on an operating system version that was listed as "Supported" at the time of purchase.

    Australia also requires that a product be fit for purpose and that after sales service (warranty repairs) be provided for an appropriate period. That said, I've never heard of anyone following up on this for software.

    C1 might make a good test case - especially at the high price.

     

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  • Jason Patel

    So today I finally have moved on, was intending to keep using C1 but I felt like I was wasting my time "investing" time in editing on a platform that I principally dont agree with the model.  Jumped to Amazon Prime Deal for the Main Competitor for £70 for the year, I last used that software in 2013 when I switched to C1.

    A shame but the innovations look to be more favorable elsewhere too.

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  • Jacques Dubé

    Jason Patel C1 Main Competitor? Which one is it? Thanks.

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